Bob: Today, I get the opportunity to talk with co-founder, CEO, and chief whiteboard artist at DISTILL, Neely Tamminga. Welcome, Neely.
Neely: Well, thank you, Bob. I’m so glad to be here with you today.
Bob: I’m glad to be here. Now, listen, we shared the stage many years ago at a shopper track event in Chicago, and I have found your strong insights so helpful. So tell me what is DISTILL and what does it have to do with retail?
Neely: Oh, such a great question. DISTILL, we’re a very specialized research advisory business for C-suites and boards. We help explain consumer behavior, but all through an economic lens. In some ways, I guess we extract clarity from complexity because there’s a lot of messages. There are a lot of messages that are out there, but we do it with the economic angle before the consumer economy.
Bob: You mean you don’t have the traditional, “Retail is dead. There’s an apocalypse. No one will ever shop at a mall again lens?”
Neely: No. No, this was definitely a year of vindication for those of us who felt kind of quieted for that rebuttal as it were, right?
Bob: I love that. Well, we’re recording this in December while we’re also looking forward to January. So what do you think retailers should be paying attention to in economic reports? And if you want to do a little bit of a primer for me, that would be great because, invariably, with a bombshells hit, the world is ending in retail. All I do is I just go right over to your post in LinkedIn like, “Okay, so tell me, is that right?” And it’s almost always like, “Yes, don’t be pay attention to this, pay attention to that.”
Neely: Look, there’s a lot of noise that exists out there, and I think it’s navigating that noise and trying to find the nuance for 2022 when we look ahead and around the corner. It candidly was easy to do our job in 2020 and 2021. Everybody stopped consuming. And what was that going to look like to retail sales? And then everybody was allowed to consume again. It was a very binary sort of approach. Oh, and by the way, we gave trillions of dollars of stimulus to people to spend. So I’d like to stay here and tell you that was a difficult job the last two years, but it was actually pretty easy.
Bob: Well, wait, wait, wait, I have to interrupt you for a second because that’s not what a lot of people looked at. Even if we were pumping money into households, it was a lot of times negated like, “Oh, well, this isn’t going to do much.” I do go back to those words when...and you said it at the outset, clarity. So what can you tell us about, for example, the last quarter, the last three or four months of 2021 have not been, “Everything is all great,” but it’s also got so many data points.
Neely: I think the nuance over the last few months has been in the details of understanding the economic realities facing different consumers. So if you’re making $200,000 a year, for example, gasoline might only represent 1%, 2% of your overall consumer expenditure budget. So if gasoline goes up 30%, 40%, 50%, it’s not that big of a deal. If you make $50,000 a year, it’s a significantly larger portion of your consumer expenditure budget, and you’re really going to feel it when that gas price goes higher. So I think as we think through what’s going on with the economic realities facing consumers, the inflation call is an important call and one to monitor because it’s affecting different households differently, and that’s one of the things that we do with and for our clients.
Bob: Well, you do such a great job. And I think when I first heard you say it, it was like, “Gas has risen and maybe the average household is $60.” But you said, “But that’s maybe six trips to Chipotle or 10 trips to Starbucks.” And I love that clarity. It was like, “Oh.” To your point, if I’m making 200 grand, it can be poo-pooed. But I think on the other side, we’re hearing this inflation is coming and you’re all going to die, but at the same time, wages are going up. I mean, who’s talking about we need to raise the minimum wage. It’s effectively raised now, isn’t it?
Neely: It is. I don’t have the very specific statistic that I’d want to quote with certainty, but the vast majority of jobs, even though the federal minimum wage is at a certain level, the vast majority jobs are above that federal minimum wage. So changing the policy would not necessarily affect the market rate of the outcome. But yes, wages have been higher. Unfortunately, at a very high level, consumer price index has actually been higher. So inflation has been higher than what wage expansion actually has been. So if you look at real wages, it hasn’t been that lovely. It actually feels like you’re working a little bit harder and getting a little bit less. I don’t know how you feel. And if you’ve been traveling, I’ve traveled a little bit this fall, but the higher that’s there with people and that anxiety, I’m sure we’re going to be talking about some of that, but I look at that in consumer behavior, whether it’s the airline stories that were seen and what have you, you wonder like, “Where is this coming from? But I don’t know, maybe I’d feel a little ticked off too if I was working a lot harder in a global pandemic and not really feeling the full benefits of that economically.
Bob: All right, [crosstalk 00:05:48]...
Neely: I’m not justifying it though, Bob. I’m not justifying it.
Bob: All right. So I literally just got back from Dubai yesterday. And I will tell you, it is incredibly stressful to fly internationally right now. And I had done everything. I flew United. They say, “Come early, schedule appointment for your COVID test, and then you’ll board the flight.” So I do all of that, I can’t check in, though, through the mobile app. I go up to the counter, which has a lot of people, and this woman is telling me, “Well, try this, try that.” Then I scan something and it was in Arabic. I’m like, “No, I’m going from America. There, I’m a U.S., right?” And then she just turns to me and out of nowhere goes, “Well, you’ve got the wrong COVID test.”
Neely: Oh, my word, it’s like my number one anxiety moment right there, right there.
Bob: I raised my voice, I go, “What?” She goes, “Do not yell at me, sir, or I will end this,” and that made it even worse.
Neely: Oh, my word.
Bob: She’s like, “You have to go get another one.” I said, “That’s it. You get a supervisor down here right now and you get someone to help me.” And I heard it in my voice, this is the reason I’m sharing this, because maybe under circumstances, it wouldn’t have been such a deal, but that ire very real. And it shocked me that she went to the place she did, but it also shocked me because suddenly it was like, “You’re helpless again.” Is that it?
Neely: Correct. Yes. I think there’s this element where everyone just feels a little bit powerless, right? And maybe not even helpless, but powerless, and all for different reasons. I think it’s affecting different people differently and what have you. And that’s actually one of the things that I love about retail. I know this is going to sound like a cheesy flex, Bob, but I do believe this. I believe when we get eye to eye with people and we are helped by the person across six feet from us, there’s an opportunity to rewire our brains in a way that repaths towards human connectivity and love and engagement. And that’s one of the things that I love so much about your messaging and what you do out there because you are really about that human connection side and retail. And I dare we declare that retail can actually help rebuild trust in human connection moments again because it’s not happening in politics, it’s not happening in education, it’s not happening with our public health system right now. Is it retail? And I think that’s what actually makes me really optimistic about the industry.
Bob: I would agree. The second story was my passport, and I drove to New Hampshire to get it. And I’m there an hour early, and I give her all this stuff, and then one goes, “Well, we’ll have it for you around 3:00 today.” And I went off again. I just said, “What?” I didn’t yell. I just said, “What?” They said I could wait. Here’s what bothered me about both of those interactions. Did anyone understand what it would feel like to be the customer in that moment? And I believe we can change the world by the people working and shopping in retail. I believe that 1000%. But on the other side, has the service workers adopted such a defensive or something because it seems like ire doesn’t come from nowhere, but also this idea that you’ll get it when I...you know what I mean? There’s something also at work, and maybe it’s from battle fatigue, like you say.
Neely: It’s probably battle fatigue. They may not also be empowered to do the right thing. I always think through that lens too. They might actually feel powerless in their own response. Again, it doesn’t justify your behavior, their behavior, anyone’s behavior, like that’s not what we’re here to talk about, but rather understanding where that why is right behind that kind of human moment and what can we do differently? I do think that there is this powerlessness dynamic mixed with a high dose of anxiety of not knowing what’s around the corner sometimes. And people have definitely been working harder...you know this, right? The hours have been longer, 24 million people had the opportunity or were asked to furlough while we shut down the economy in summer 2020. And I remember talking with people who continued to work. And in some ways, economically, they were watching some of their peers actually bring home checks that were greater than what they were making. And the other person was like, “And I’m still also bearing the burden of your job while you’re gone.” So there’s some real wiring, like unwired...what do we call that? Broken wired?
Bob: So is it a have and have-nots world? Because it seems like if so many writers, young writers, not picking on a generation, but young writers who talk about remote work and exist and all that, well, great. If you don’t have to go into an office, you’re probably touting all the benefits of it and don’t want to go back to that because it’s not as free. But retail is a service industry where they didn’t even have that as an option. So when we hear about the great resignation, and I do want to keep this back to what you do best as well, there’s so much being made of all these people that are resigning, etc. Is this going to affect us economically? I know that retailers are concerned, and they say it’s all wages. I don’t think it is all wages. I think a lot of people are going out and becoming entrepreneurs and don’t realize this is twice as much work as you going into a store. You’ll find this out but for right now, it sounds great.
Neely: It’s a good question. I don’t think any of us really know quite yet what this moment is and how the long-term ramifications of it might be, or positive, by the way, positive ramifications too. Our current hypothesis is that this is actually not the great resignation, but rather the great reprioritization. I think the one thing that you and I and everybody else have in common is that we have 8,760 hours in a year. It’s fixed. And when we’ve done some maybe rethinking around how we’re spending our time or how we’re asked to spend our time and what that looks like, I think people are having some aha moments about what they actually prioritize.
You and I have been doing our own thing for a little while, so we understand what it is to have the joy of flexibility. We also understand the anxiety of running your own business, as well like we understand the both sides of this. And I don’t know how you are, but I chuckle a little bit on the inside when people are like, “I find out that I work better first thing in the morning, and I wasn’t doing that for the last 30 years of my life.” I’m like, “Yes, that is in fact what you get to do as an entrepreneur. Welcome. Welcome to our world.” Do you have similar experiences with other people’s ahas about this work revolution?
Bob: Yes. I’ve been doing this for 30 years, and then people are like, “Well, I don’t feel like doing something, is that like you? And I’m like, “I don’t have that option.” I’m in the office at 5:00 because I wake up, do all my email, all this stuff, and I’m in my office until 5:00. And so I could just as easily be driving to an office, but that freedom comes with an awful lot of responsibility because you have to look in the window and say, “Oh, what is Bob doing here?” Because there’s only an accountability to yourself. And I think that’s one of the challenges we have in retail right now. I think people are afraid to hold people accountable. Would you agree with that? Do you see that when you go shopping, for example, it’s more task-driven than engagement-driven?
Neely: It is, for sure. I think probably like we see how the sausage is made, so I think there’s a little bit more grace that we have for what’s going on in the store level. We understand what’s going on the labor force. I often wonder, though, how others might view those interactions when you go from task to engagement. I’m not going to name the retailer just because I want to be classy, but I was recently shopping in a name you and I both know. And it appeared to me that it took like four people at one till to figure out a problem while the line was nine deep. It was just one of those where you just say, “Were they empowered to at least acknowledge the line?” Like, “Hey, you all, we’ll be right with you.” Even that small act of eye-to-eye acknowledgment, I think can take temperatures down when people are managing their time, which is fixed.
Bob: And feeling ready to do that job is...when I heard you say that instantly, I thought, “Okay, so there’s four people, I would take a supervisor with [inaudible 00:15:23] go, “You know what? Speaker 1: Why don’t we take your stuff? I’ll take you over here and we’ll figure it out together.” And everybody would’ve been like...
Neely: Right, right, and rooting for them instantly. Trust can be rebuilt literally in an instant. And I think sometimes people forget that, or they don’t feel empowered that they can actually rebuild trust in an instant. And a lot of it just has to do with having a little bit of empathy, adding a little bit of the rigor, a little bit more of, “Hey, we’re dealing with an issue, we’ll be right with you in two minutes,” or, fine, trust rebuilt time, communication.
Bob: Absolutely. Now, I know. Wall Street Journal named you the best on the street analyst in 2006 and 2011. Yes, I’m crowing about your achievements. What was it that made us stand out? There must be something.
Neely: Thank you. Those are very kind words. And that was forever ago, I think, in some ways too. I think I have been given a gift of being able to take a lot of disparate data in my brain and quickly synthesize how that’s going to play out. I don’t know why I’m wired this way. Sometimes the older I get, the more I’m just like, “Wow, okay, that’s my party trick. I’m able to do that. That’s my cocktail hour conversation and so use it wisely.” Interestingly, I don’t know how you feel with your giftings as well as you age into wisdom and how you might think through that. But I know understand why I’ve been impatient with people in the past when it comes to like, “Oh, that’s why I was a jerk. Okay, I needed to ask more questions to get people on board so I can get to that conclusion, instead of being annoyed that they weren’t there.”
Bob: Because they’re not like you and realizing, “I’m different in a good way and it’s not their fault that they’re not like me in their way.”
Neely: Exactly. And so I would hope from 20 to 30, to 40. I was in my 30s when I won those awards, from 30s to 40s, I think what I’ve gained a little bit is the awareness of how to love people through your own gifting and bring them along the path and really optimize the outcome by bringing them along and co-creating the thesis, whatever that is. And so if anyone’s listening to this and they’re listening for an aha and personal development level, realize your greatest strengths and sometimes be your greatest weapon and maybe recast that in thinking through that not everybody’s gifted the same way.
Bob: It’s funny you say that because I know when I do keynotes I always make sure I put a picture of me in cowboy hat when I sold cowboy clothes back in the ‘80s and get them to laugh because it’s like I can come off like, “I am the great God of retail down to bless you with my stuff and it’s like I don’t ever want that.” But I’m strong force, and I realize it can be really intimidating and then people turn off, and you’re like, “That’s not helping any of us.” So I totally get that, I totally get that.
Neely: I really appreciate the silliness and the levity that you incorporate in your own pattern of success. I see it all the time, because, you know what? it goes back to that human connection, Bob. It’s lowering the temperature so that people can get to a place of human connection and learning. And that’s what you’re all about. That’s what’s fun to be on the stage with you about?
Bob: Oh, well, thank you. Well, I think that’s what 2022 is going to be about is trying to get rid of labels and trying to be in a place to just say, “I just want to be here and be curious about the other person. And if I get that right, I can follow through my training and other things. But if I not curious, if you’re a thing for me to get around like I fell for this, the wrong COVID has, out of my way, I have a plan to catch. You are worthless to me.” That’s what the feeling was and to try to take back and say, “Okay, what did it feel like to be her?” And then go, “Okay, so she sees this. This is my moment out of tens of thousands of hours. This is hers like probably every hour of every day,” although I could train her to say, “Don’t ever say that to someone.” That’s the...
Neely: You had asked about the younger generation. And one of the great blessings for me that came out of COVID is I actually picked up teaching at the college level. I’m a professor, a visiting professor at a local university, and I love it. Do I have time for it? Very little. But do I do it? Absolutely. And I love it. I love these kids...students. Okay, they’re adults. But they are amazing. And I teach leadership and ethics. I’ve got them to firewall their brain now, which is a ton of fun because we actually practice. We don’t study leadership, we do leadership. That’s how we do it. But I’d say to them, “We need to have a firewall that immediately goes up one more trigger so that we can stop in pause instead of moving forward.” And the phrase that we use is, “I’m going to hold wonder for the person across the table from me. But the work that needs to be done in their life is not yet complete.” So I have been trained to say that phrase over and over again. “I’m going to hold the wonder the person across the table for me. They have not yet completed the work that is yet to be done.” So that might have helped.
Bob: I think it helps everybody. I say, “I don’t know who I am in your life right now, but I’m not me.”
Neely: Oh, that’s so good.
Bob: And then if you can hold that idea, it’s like, “Oh.”
Neely: Oh, that’s good, that’s good.
Bob: Well, we should be doing more speaking together. You’re just fabulous. I just love you. So let’s get back to retail. What do you think it will take to compete with the online juggernaut of press and distribution of Amazon? It seems like every story is about the wonder child that is Amazon and everyone fears that something like 55% of online sales goes to them. And I always say, “Take care of your four walls.” But what do you think it does? Is there room to compete against them? And any of your thoughts?
Neely: Absolutely there is. You and I both know there is.
Bob: I’m teeing you up.
Neely: I know, I know, I know. But it’s like what is there new to say about it? I think other than it’s just time, it’s waiting to see how they progress in this current season. So I’m not calling for the end of Amazon or something silly like that, that’s a fool’s call. However, I do think that people need to remember that they basically built their business in all time low interest rate environment, a near deflationary environment, an environment that rewarded their investors for having losses and not gains. There’s a whole series of conditions that...probably millions of conditions that came together over the course of 20, 25 years of just being right place, right time, and pressing when they did and acquiring what they did.
So I can just keep numerating all of these reasons why, but I think what I’m looking for is, “Okay, now, how do you go on that product lifecycle curve from introduction to growth and now to maturity? What does Amazon look like on the maturity curve?” because trees don’t grow to the sky and you absolutely will eventually go from growth to maturity. And when your whole culture is rooted and not operating in a mature cycle with budgets and travel budgets and what have you, I don’t know if that’s the case if they have travel budgets or not, but you see I’m saying like, “Conditions are different.”
Bob: The sky is the limit at some point. I love that, trees don’t grow to the sky.
Neely: They don’t, they don’t. And I’ve seen retailers fall in their own swords for that same view. You’ve seen that too when they go from maturity to growth, or from introductory to growth, to maturity. They believe their own story that it will never happen to them and...
Bob: Cough, cough, sears, anyways.
Neely: Cough, cough, laundry list of names. Let’s not make enemies today., but yes, several, several.
Bob: Okay, good. So we’re going to continue in just a minute, but first, a word about our sponsor CoreLogic. Okay, we’re back. And before we continue, we love CoreLogic and our loyal listeners. If you do me a favor, give us a 5-star rating today after this episode with Neely, I would appreciate it. So you already have told us about your age because you’re a 40 Under 40 award winner. Is that inspiring or daunting?
Neely: I’m not over 40, well over 40.
Bob: Says you’re 40 Under 40.
Neely: I was that year that I won it. But at some point, the girls has a birthday.
Bob: I love talking to analytical people. I said that wrong. I got it. But is that inspiring, or was that daunting?
Neely: It was an honor. Out of that evening, it was a little hoopla evening and there was a gentleman whose name is Rick from Macomb, happy to name drop him. He’s local here in the Twin Cities, is well known for helping out small businesses and other small to medium-sized businesses, and he’s a venture capital guy basically, is the way to think through. That evening, and I was under 40, he said, “Hey, I’m Rick, and I want to let you know that...give me a call anytime if you need help with anything.” It was that broad and it was that clear and abrupt. I didn’t talk to him for like another 10 years.
And then when Kayla and I decided to launch DISTILL, he was one of my first calls. I said, “I don’t know if you’re going to remember this, but one day, 40 under 40, you offer can you help me with anything? Would you be willing to sit down and just listen to what we’re trying to do and would just love your perspective? We’re in business with him to this day and ownership of a family business. And so just the power of networking I think is the message there. So did it change my life, the award? No, but did I find someone who is capable of influencing my life? Absolutely. And that’s really how I take those opportunities hoody like you, like meeting at our keynote. We’ve kept in contact this entire time.
Bob: Long time.
Neely: That to me is the joy of the human connections, not the awards.
Bob: So true. When I finished my speech in Dubai, this young man comes up to me, he goes, “I’m so glad to finally meet you.” And he goes on to tell me how he had bought my book 10 years ago, bought my sales training, and he’d been using for his 200 employees every day, he goes, “You are the reason why we’re doing this,” and then he made a quick little video for me. And you just don’t know whose life you’re going to touch if you just have the spirit of getting the right message out, which is we’re more alike than different and we have more to learn from each other than worry about each other. I want to switch heads a little bit for you. Rental, fad, or long-term category in retail?
Neely: Oh, like the rental, anything business?
Bob: Rental anything, Let’s take apparel because I think that’s the one that makes the most news right now.
Neely: Am I allowed to say I don’t know? I don’t know. Maybe.
Bob: Okay. Well, I guess what I look at is over the years, so many of these ideas lose millions and millions of dollars are never profitable. And when I was growing up, you had to make a profit, which showed that people were interested in your product and you feel the need. And it seems like we’re in upside down world, where...what is it? [inaudible 00:28:32] $11 billion worth now versus GM has delivered one vehicle. Is his hope what is driving all of these things, like you’ll be like Amazon if we just keep staying long enough, you’ll make money?
Neely: I think investors are intrigued about making sure they have capital put in areas that are the next generation of whatever category it is. We could probably look at the plant-based meats as a conversation or the plant-based alternatives and food right broadly as a category. Cannabis, I think too has definitely had some of that as well. I believe there’s even things in the newspaper, even large distillery type businesses, who are involved in other substances were like, “Hey, maybe we need to expand what it is to relax,” or whatever that term, not that I’m condoning any of it, I’m just saying that that’s...you can even in corporate development departments as well as it is in the investors, to make some of these investments in broad-reaching.
Rental, I think it’s very intriguing to me, for sure, because how many times did girls grow up and they just swapped their own prom dresses with one another? You saw that in the consumer behavior before the business model ever existed? I think that that’s always an intriguing thing when you see things in behavior before the business model. And the business model helps platform it. However, how long can they run it for the way that they run it in a way that meets consumer demand and what really is that market? At some point, people might just decide that they want to own things too, remember? No millennial was ever going to own a home in 2016, Mr. Forbes.
Bob: That’s right. Those damn millennials are ruining everything, all of our whole engine wasn’t going to work, and then what do we find out?
Neely: They’ve been the primary home buyer since 2016. I can pull up those articles. Just as much as we joke about the retail is dead, I always chuckle with the millennials never want to own anything. I’m like, “I don’t think you’ve met a millennial. They can’t own anything because of the student debt. But that doesn’t mean they don’t want to own something.”
Bob: Well, and that’s the key for retail, isn’t it? We’re a want basis, we’re a want market. And people forget that. It’s really the story of consumers is want, rarely is it need. Yes, it could be eggs, let’s say, but there’s so many variations in eggs, right? I want organic free-range, brown or white, or natural or multicolored, or whatever they’re going to be. We forget that, that it’s still most of retail. And I think the money for most of retail is in the wants versus the generic. Well, I was just thinking it was at Brands, was that the company that said they were going to be doing snacks that were unbranded and they were going to blow up and be a big thing, and then a couple of years later found out that it didn’t work out that way.
Neely: Oh, Brandless.
Bob: Brandless.
Neely: I’m sorry for anybody who’s listening to this, and they might be associated with Brandless, but you need to know I chuckled every single time because there was a private label brand at May Company way before they were acquired by Macy’s, and it was called Brandini. And so every single time I heard Brandless, I always thought of Brandini. I was like, “Who is at these tables? I’ve got the killer idea. Let’s take brand and let’s add a couple concepts. I want that job. I could do that.” You and I could do that. We could get paid big money.
Bob: We would just sit around giggling all day, though.
Neely: Variations of the word brand, so...
Bob: We’d throw some weird wind in there and say, “10 to 1, this is the one they go with.” And someone will say, “I love that, Brandful. That’s great. It’s Brandful.”
Neely: That is a million-dollar idea, right there, Brandful. There you go. It’s official. It’s on this podcast. No one else can have it.
Bob: It’s copyrighted, Neely and Bob. Surely? Well, as an entrepreneur, what is one of the best or most worthwhile investments you’ve ever made?
Neely: Hmm, my word. Oh, so broad. Okay. Well, one would be investment in time to build relationships. I think being relational, simply success, you can fake it in corporate environments, I think, but when you are an entrepreneur, you really need to have a relational business. And relationships take time, time, thoughtfulness, intentionality. And time costs money. That’s just the reality of it all. And I’m naturally an introvert, so it...
Bob: I would never know that.
Neely: People are always surprised, I’m like, “You should see me after I give a keynote. I’m cocooning in my hotel bed just shaking.” Okay. So relationships for me, for the business. Kayla, who’s the co-founder of DISTILL, she is truly the best business partner I’ve ever had, had the privilege of working for. At this point, let’s face it, I’m working for Kayla. And that came through an internship relationship. She was my intern. She went from intern to co-founder. And she’s amazing. She’s very uniquely gifted. We’re good complimentary gifts. And so when you ask me that, it would be hard for me to not acknowledge what relationships mean and the investment of time in relationships. And then I can also answer and say, “Well, I really like the Blinkist app.” That’s worth $100 a year, Canva, $100 pro. That’s a pretty good investment too.
Bob: No, I think you’re one with the time. Yes, that’s a better one. There you go. Well, listen, we are almost out of time and you’ve been generous with giving me yours Neely. The podcast is called “Tell Me Something Good About Retail.” So what have you got for us to send this out the door?
Neely: If you’re a retailer and you’re feeling a little overworked right now and it’s holiday season and you’re feeling a little heavy, just know that 2022 is the year to shine. Take care of yourself, rest up buttercup, but retail has an opportunity to be the engine to rewire human connectivity. And approaching it that way, by empowering your people to make the right decision, they will not only feel the blessing of that empowerment, but they will spread the blessing of that empowerment. And I cannot think of a better setup for how retail can uniquely look like the place of engagement and service. So blessings, just do it. We got you, we’re rooting for you all along. And it is going to get a little noisy economically in 2022 but above all, human connection matters.
Bob: That was the perfect way to send us off, Neely Tamminga. I’m so glad you joined us today from DISTILL. Thanks so much.
Neely: Thanks, Bob. Appreciate you.
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